Friday, February 25, 2011

My Facebook Abortion Debate. Defend your faith and Deliver the Gospel!

Yesterday I got into a debate with a pro-abortion, Facebook friend and her friends. We exchanged messages back and forth defending our opinions on the issue of abortion. Here is the transcript of the conversation. Note in the end how I was able to deliver the Gospel. (For evangelism students)

Jonelle's headline: Pro Choice or Pro Life... should remain a personal commitment, not a law. It's no surprise that an archaic measure such as this would creep into our lives!

Humberto: Well buddy, don't look @ it as archaic. I mean, this should be viewed in conjunction with other mechanisms of power; I mean, look @ how this closely follows anti-immigrant legislation in Arizona. Let's face it, this law would mainly target low income women of color

Humberto- "mainly taget low income women of color" EXACTLY! "Pro-choice "is a misnomer. You have been decieved into going along with Margaret Sanger's (founder of Planned Parenthoods) plan. To kill black babies. She believed strongly in ...eugenics. You won't find a Planned Parenthood in La Jolla or Beverly Hills, but you will find one in Compton, Pacoima, and any other ghetto. This is not a right-wing conspiracy to take away women's rights. This is an evil scheme to irradicate people of color like you and I. I urge you to look into her and think logically( Also this article, from this source, is using good willed people like you to get riled up about nothing. There is no way that a "miscarriage" will ever be prosecuted. This article was released in response of the house of reps vote to defund planned parenthood. As you may know planned parenthood has been investigated by a foundation called Live Action. They have done many hidden camera investigations of planned parenthood, and the most recent video that made the news was one in which a planned parenthood manager talks to a pimp and an underage prostitute and tells them how to get their underage workers to come in and get checked and get abortions without getting caught. This video made headlines and was the catalyst for a house vote. I urge you to think about why Angelina Jolie has to go to other countries to adopt black babies. More black babies are aborted here than any other race. They could have been adopted by Angelina Jolie, but there are no black babies here to adopt, they are all dead. Be sad that women like me and others have been duped into killing our babies.See More

wow... our opinions on this are based on what we think and have experienced...not what some senator or founder has come up with. and besides in my eyes you have no credit because you support Palin! haha...jokes! planned parenthood is someti...mes the only option for all people regardless of color. anyone can go in and get free condoms what's wrong with that...or should we ban condoms too because that's genocide or murder.. hidden camera investigations? for reals you're going to take that for a complete truth.. if arizona is going to have a crazy ass law then this article isn't so far fetched. and who gives a shit what angelina jolie does? she's loca! have respect with your use of 'black babies'...because you are wrong they aren't all about respecting and defending lifes...that's pretty harsh coming from someone who is pro life. in your quest for truth and justice forget not the people you speak of and their positions... judge not!

You are being duped by liberal college professors, plain and simple. You claim to be a human rights activist as well, yet do not see a baby as an individual with rights. You were once a fetus that didnt have a voice. You are lucky that Ma...rgaret Sanger didn't get to you. You think I am disrespeting blacks? Well blacks themselves know they are being suppressed and are pissed off and went so far to create a site called Prove to me that the black population is increasing and not decreasing, because studies show they are on the decline just as Margaret Sanger has planned. You are falling for her evil scheme and you don't even realize it. They are killing Mexican babies too because the "white man" don't want those either. Think about it. Planned Parenthoods are only in low income communites where minorites live. You should be fighting for the rights of Mexican babies to live and grow and become just like you, an intelligent person who's life was precious from conception.See More

yo girl there are planned parent hoods all over in urban cities across the nation-they've been helping me with free care since I started having sex. Of course they are slowly going to get shut down now... but it interests me that you seem t...o think abortions and Planned Parenthood are high priority in the oppression of black people and Mexicans. I would hope that you can think of other ways people are being oppressed-and be proactive in ways that make progress in whatever it is that you believe in. Pro-Life/Pro-Choice/RACIST/BLACK/WHITE/BROWN/PURPLE whatever: shutting down planned parenthood ain't going to make no one 'less oppressed'. And yeah jolies a loca.See More

Me: Surprising that as much as you love your peoples you dont care that Margaret sanger wants them dead and your race extinct. Simple research will show you she and planned parenthood aren't on your side. No abortion means more beautiful minority babies being born and greater survival of your race. Suit yourself.

Humberto: @ Charlene, Yes! I have seen the light. I can't believe I have not seen this side of the argument before. I was duped by liberal and radical left intelligence. Maybe you are right, this is genocide and Angelina has the answer-lets all adop...t "black babies from other countries" to make up for this reported sociological "truth" of "1.97" black babies born in the U.S. (According to Rev. C Childress-whom you cited). And if they [the black babies] refuse to come, then we should just chain them on boats and drag them by force to the U.S., this should solve the baby genocide thesis. And any "black baby" that is not adopted, we can just place them with the other white babies who must be lonely in those adoption halls across the continental U.S.. See Eugenics thesis solved! Certainly this proposition would hold if I take seriously your claims (and you make some very bold claims). However, I have concern over some or most of the claims of your argument. Ok, lets "think logically," even if for a minute.

First, I won't find a Plan Parenthood (PP) in La Jolla or the Hills, because, well, rich white folk can afford their own abortions. You see, they have private hospitals, with day spa. So, it makes sense that PPs are found in low income communities, because, well, we just cant afford the day spa and hospital package. And, in PP's own mission statement, I think they say that they want to "provide high-quality, [AFFORDABLE] medical care" (my capitals). Until there is universal healthcare in the U.S. (as there is in Canada, France, the U.K, et al), PP is necessary for us poor folk.

Second, you can't argue against Eugenics with a eugenics argument (it's a circular argument--it's like saying we should end abortions by having more abortions). If you did not notice, Rev. Childress is also using a Eugenics argument. When he claims that black babies are dying because of abortions and even compares abortion to genocide, he is actually making a eugenics claim. (You see, the difference between abortion and genocide is active mass killing of a group people--like what happened to the indigenous population in the U.S.-and even they are not completely gone, though they are erased from the U.S. narrative.) In actuality, the claim that the Rev. makes is the same claim used by social scientists (race relations) in the early and late 20th century: that the black population would eventually die-off because of the historical conditions of poverty, slavery, colonialism, etc. (there are many interesting books that discuss this in detail) Also, If you pay close attention, the Rev. sounds a little concern of the over population of Latinos (it fits nicely with other anti-immigrant discourses). Moreover, the evidence given, Total Population Replacement is census tool used for other means, it does not show or prove "an evil scheme to irradicate people of color like you and I." This can be clearly demystified just by taking a look in the streets of "Compton, Pacoima, and any other ghetto"--I see black and brown people all around me, trust me when I say this, We are not going anywhere. Do you really believe that Plan Parenthood is committing genocide? You argue that the "black baby" thesis (PP) is based on the 20th century Eugenics movement, which it might be, maybe, i don't know and considering the popularity and acceptance of this view, I agree that Sanger might have had the wrong conclusion when trying to help poor immigrant women in her days. It's something that might be attributed to "the White man's Burden" (or 20th century feminism). So, think of the Eugenics movement and current Eugenics discourse as a form of modern power.

Third, you are also correct in citing Live Action and the response by the legislators. But, please also note that this is the same organization or at least are funded by the same people or are using the same tactics that were used when Andrew Breitbart posted a doctored video clip to accuse ousted former USDA official Shirley Sherrod of racism--this is easy to look up online. (you should also look up what happened to ACCORN as well). These vicious attacks have been part of a neoconservative, right-wing, Christian movement that have all been vindicated by U.S. officials. So, please also look for the entire argument before you make your case. Otherwise, you just sound a bit out of tune with reality. I do concede that some representatives of PP might have gone out of line, but as whole, PP has been and is a responsible entity.

Fourth, is a religious based organization. Please don't forget the role of Christianity (religion) in the colonization, genocide of people in the Americas. Unless we are speaking Liberation Theology (look it up) here, Christianity is already foreclosed by colonialism, murder, etc. But, if you are subscribing to this moral argument against abortion, that is cool, but you have to be even across the board-also oppose capital punishment, the industrial military complex, war, poverty, etc: these things also prematurely kill people. And don't think that because the Rev. is black helps/ legitimates your claim. There are plenty racist people of color-there are plenty of brown folk who discriminate against undocumented immigrants and subscribe to conservative ideologies.

Finally, if you claim to know what Angelina was/is thinking when she adopts children outside the U.S., you either must be able to read minds or have no clue what entails a sound and convincing argument. But I can tell you this, maybe Angelina adopts children abroad because of her philanthropic/humanitarian work in the countries she works/visits.This might be why she is an Goodwill Ambassador for the United Nations High Commission for Refugees. In fact, I can assure you that it has nothing to do with your claim that "More black babies are aborted here than any other race". The struggles by foster children in the U.S. are not the same as they are outside the U.S. Also, when you claim that Angelina would rather adopt black children in the U.S. "but there are no black babies here to adopt" because they are all dead is just plain stupid. I'm sorry for attacking your view of Angelina, but you sound crazy from my point. I really hope you take the time to read all this because I have been writing for a couple of hours now. But, if Jonelle is correct and subscribe to the mama bear (Palin) doctrine, then you probably wont even take the time to look up some of the literature that I have pointed to. I hope you do. If you need help with this, I will give you books and scholarly literature that will better inform you as to why you make such a stupid argument.See More

Ad hominem attack. "you sound crazy... you probably won't even take the time... stupid argument..."Typical. (not of your race but of your idealogy) Case closed. I was being sarcastic about Angelina Jolie ,your "Goodwill Ambassador for th...e United Nations High Commision for Refugees", she is "loca" I agree. Everything you have said I have some knowledge about, including "liberation theology," which is called " heretical", if you know anything about Christian theology. Yes, I claim boldly that abortion was popularized because of the eugenics movement. But first and and foremost because humans are depraved beings who will always have blood on their hands.

Anyway I appreciate the effort you took in writing a response. There is no excuse/argument I haven't heard before as well for your pro life stance. (poverty, individual rights, population control.)

I do defend life because I am a Christian. I believe that God knew us before we were even formed. And all the babies that were aborted in the womb are in a place called heaven sitting next to the God that formed them in the womb. I don't know whether or not you practice a faith or acknowledge a deity, from the looks of it you don't. It doesn't make you unintelligent and unworthy of debate, that would be an illogical argument called an ad hominem for me to say that. ;) Anyway my point is this, if you love people so much and care for people's "rights" why don't you care about the baby in the womb that could have been the next president Obama. I do believe that the world system is duping you and the youth in its acceptance of abortion. It is your typical preservation of life vs preservation of life moral dilemma. I choose to preserve both and I believe it is possible. A pro abortion stance already gives up on the possibility of a happy ending for the two lives involved. That is why "pro-choice" is a misnomer. The baby involved doesn't have a choice. Good thing Sanger didn't get to Obama, Che, Mao, Castro, or else you wouldn't have anyone to look up to. Jk. Anyway, pro-abortion is not logical to me, from a moral standpoint and a scientific standpoint. Ask an atheist sciences professor what the purpose of human life is, they will either say "no purpose" or "our purpose is to reproduce" Then I asked, well if our sole purpose is to reproduce then why do we have abortions? Survival of the fittest? Wow amazing. It doesnt make logical sense why we have abortions. You might as well tell a kid that is in poverty (because his mom was in poverty when she had him ;)) that his mom should have just killed him in the womb. Do it. Tell underprivledged kids that they would have been better off dead.
Anyway, I just think that it is wrong to kill babies in the womb and women have been fooled to think it is ok, and they labeled it pro-choice as if it were a good thing. You should talk to women who regret having abortions. Anyway to make you feel better, abortion is never gonna go away. I will lose and you will win. Abortion will soon be offered in the school nurse office and I will not be able to do anything aout it. The world is going the way you want it to go. Progessive right? Don't worry Planned Parenhood is not going away. Have fun defending death, i'll have fun defending life.See More

Charlene, it's great to know that you are not crazy, though it would have helped if you at least used the "jk or lol" after the sarcastic comment about Angelina. As that comment stands, it really does sound like you are crazy, but you are n...ot. And I'm happy it was I who misunderstood the sarcasm...So, I did attack your post by attaching it to your beliefs, but I did so not by invalidating your argument but I just wanted to highlight that at least that part of your argument sounds crazy, and it does, right? So, I think that the Ad hominem is justified. And thank you for taking the time to read the entire thing. Now, you have to admit abortion was popular even before eugenics. I concede that abortion was used as a tool of the eugenics movement. That is a fact that I will not dispute. But again, eugenics has nothing to do with PP today. And I boldly claim that because abortion in the U.S. is not a mass movement by women, doctors even PP to murder the unborn. I think even "pro-choice" people wouldn't argue or say that abortion is morally right, I don't think that is what most pro-choice people would think. And you also agree that abortions are not going anywhere, right? In that case, I think that we should focus on preventative measures, not criminalization measures. The point I think is how do we limit or reduce the need for abortions. (it has been done, but they increased during the Bush administration) But for some pro-life advocates, even contraceptive measures are abortions, for some even thinking about sex is an abortion.
As for your example of the scientist, I think there is such a thing as asking the wrong question. Asking for the purpose of life already presupposes an a "god," but seriously that question can never be answered. To answer that our sole purpose is to reproduce doesn't explain why some people (women and men) can't reproduce at all. Do they not have a purpose in life? anyways, you are right, it is an endless argument, and I think no one wins, but the whole argument began because some legislator is attempting to criminalize women who undergo abortions, for what ever reason and doctors who perform the procedure. I just wish conservative Christians felt the same way about the end of life happening in Afghanistan when bombs are dropped indiscriminately against civilian populations, you know, pregnant women are also killed by bombs--is that considered abortion in Christianity? I wish the Christians felt the same way about capital punishment, you know, innocent people have been killed by this too. It amazes me how conservative christians come out in masse to vote for conservative politicians but fail to do so about other atrocities being committed by Christians and to see how these things are all connected. Maybe I do advocate death, but I am not happy to do so. But please, I want to hear how much fun you have defending the life of muslim child who just got bombed by a U.S. drone just because the plane missed its target. Life is life and lets feel the same way across the board.
Finally, I think you also used an ad hominem argument when you suggest that I celebrate death when you say "Have fun defending death, i'll have fun defending life."
I also think Angelina is a Loca!
and I stick to this general rule, if you think abortion is morally wrong, don't have one, easy.
and yes, I am a devout atheist
finally, don't ignore the role Christianity had and continues to have in colonialism and all sorts of violence throughout the global space. YES! Liberation theology is a heretic religion, it's so because they understand that to truly struggle for social justice, it is important to do so through the view of the working poor not mainstream Christianity who only offers hope and salvation instead of social justice and equality...See More

I don't think that was a dumb question. It's like asking what is the purpose of bacteria, or the purpose of all purpose flour. :) It's crazy that an atheist scientist will have the answer to the purpose of everything else except for man. ...Every living thing in existence plays a role or has a "purpose" in our ecosystem. What is our role? Human rights activism, animal rights activism, environmentalism? There is something more to our existance than that of bacteria, a dog or a chimpanzee. The Bible says we are superior to animals and have dominion over them. I don't see how that is not true.

As far as capital punishment and the lives of people in wars... Capital punishment is not a Christian doctrine. Not biblical at that. That is what the lamestream media has said about Christianity and that is what people think is true without even asking a Christian. Christianity is about God's forgiveness and mercy upon the indivisual sinner. No man can be the judge of another man, and no man can take away life except for God. In Christianity God is in charge of all things, and the only thing that matters is, you were correct, salvation. So I tell you now that capital punishment such as the death penalty and even life imprisonment are unbiblical and unchristian. Therefore I do not, as a real studied Christian, believe in capital punishment. Because Christianity is about needing a Savior to realize your sin, confess your sin, and change. Nothing more nothing less.

Everything you have said about Christianity is what the world and its evil wants you to believe. You don't see it here in the US, but Christians are being persecuted and killed everyday. I wonder if you would have the nerve to tell me anything if I told you I was Muslim. Would you tell me as an atheist that my religion has killed many as well? Would you even dare to use the word "terrorism"? You sound like a PC kinda guy. So I doubt it. But the Christian animosity is not new or alarming to me. It's just getting stronger and stronger and Christians don't really care. You don't see us protesting do you? You don't see us bombing and looking for world domination. Yeah the Catholics did and that is what you reference, but that is expected from a heretical group like that.

What are the atrocites being commited by Christians? Show me a headline. Do you seriously believe this war is between Christians and Muslims, or CHristians and the rest of the world? Uhm its not. We Christians already know that we don't win. Remember our God is in control we are not. We lose the battle here, we just look forward to spending eternity in fellowship with our Creator. The Bible does not give 72 virgins in heaven if you martyr yourself. That is the other "religion of peace." According to the Bible CHrisitans will never see justice for persecution until the end. So I sit patiently and wait.

And yes, you are absolutely correct, the Gospel of Jesus Christ is not about social justice and equality. It is just about individual salvation and the acceptance of your suffering in this world. In closing, I give you the Gospel, what Christianity is really and only about.

Think of it this way... Imagine you're in a courtroom again, you're guilty of many serious crimes. The judge says, "It's a fine of $500,000, or prison." You don't have anywhere near that amount of money, so the bailiff begins to walk you out of the courtroom when someone you don't even know appears. He runs up to the judge with a check and says, "I've paid the fine for you." Now that the fine has been paid, the law no longer has any hold on you. You're free -- because of the gift you were given.

This is what God did for you by sending Jesus to die on the cross in your place. So that you wouldn't have to go to Hell, God sent his only Son, Jesus, to die on the cross -- suffering the punishment that justice demands. Then He rose from the grave, forever defeating death! The Bible tells us, "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him, shall not perish, but have everlasting life." (John 3:16) If you will repent of your sins and put your trust in Jesus, God says he will forgive all your sins and grant you the gift of everlasting life. Just like the court case we just talked about, if you repent (that means to confess and forsake your sins) and put your trust in Jesus, then you will not have to suffer God's justice in Hell because the payment for your crimes was made by Jesus on the cross.See More

When debating try not to make personal attacks, which is an illogical argument called an ad hominem, meaning attacking the man not the argument, so that they may ruin your credibility. Notice how they say i'm crazy, or i'm stupid, etc. This is a typical debate tactic when you cannot win. Humberto said I attacked him by saying "have fun defending death, while I have fun defending life." That was not a personal attack because his stance is for the defense of death. That was not attacking the man by calling him names to ruin his credibility.

This was a great opportunity to deliver the Gospel. Humberto being a true atheist brought up how "Christianity has caused many attrocities." When people say such things, just deliver the truth about what Christianity is about, (the Gospel). The world has been fooled into hating Christians. Just tell them what Christianity and Jesus is all about and wipe your hands clean. You have done your duty.

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